20 replies to this topic Post Order

[stringbean]

I am convinced this is the way to go and i am sure bikemax can give us hours on the subject.I am asking those who own or have ridden the power tap system.Was it worth it?Can you see an improvement and should i look at purchasing the hub system or the indoor trainer system.Sorry bikemax but i stay on the other side of the boerewors curtain(Northern suburbs) so it is a bit far to travel to you.

[BikeMax]

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I am convinced this is the way to go and i am sure bikemax can give us hours on the subject.I am asking those who own or have ridden the power tap system.Was it worth it?Can you see an improvement and should i look at purchasing the hub system or the indoor trainer system.Sorry bikemax but i stay on the other side of the boerewors curtain(Northern suburbs) so it is a bit far to travel to you.

I am sure you want other opinions than mine - but I have a very good article on why training with power is so effective, it also reviews the various power meter systems. If you PM me your e-mail (and anyone else who may be interested is welcome to do the same) then I will mail it to you.

The hub system gives you more flexibility and can also be used on a trainer.

For information - we really specialise in online training and have clients all over the world - even Worcester (ask WW smileys/smiley2.gif)

[tooHot!!!!]

Hey stringbean.

I have never used the power tap system but i train at bikemax and the facility is World class smileys/smiley32.gif

Since commencing training at BikeMax in March 2004 my cycling ability has improved in leaps and bounds. I am now a strong and confident rider because of Bikemax. I was seeded G at that time and in a matter of six months i made it to ELITE because of BikeMax. So i highly reccomend BikeMax as your training venue.

Living and working in northern suburbs is a bit of a problem especially if you have to commute to claremont to train, i know i have to do that every evening i train at bike max. In fact i work in westlake (ou-kaapse weg) and have to commute home (Monte Vista) and then get in my moms car (i dont have my own) and drive to claremont all before my 18:30 session at bike max but i make it and it is worth all the effort!

If you can i reccomend BikeMax as your first choice but if not I am sure Peter can advise you on the best alternative smileys/smiley1.gif

[Sir Fed]

[quote name='BikeMax]I am sure you want other opinions than mine - but I have a very good article on why training with power is so effective' date=' it also reviews the various power meter systems. If you PM me your e-mail (and anyone else who may be interested is welcome to do the same) then I will mail it to you.[/QUOTE']

Is there no way to get this article posted on the home page of this website or at chainwheel? I am sure many people are interested in knowing more.

[WorcesterWheelers]

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For information - we really specialise in online training and have clients all over the world - even Worcester (ask WW smileys/smiley2.gif)

Hey Bikemax! smileys/smiley7.gif I take offense in the suggestion that Worcester is "on the otherside of the world". smileys/smiley19.gif

Just because of that, I won't tell everybody how nice your online training system really is....smileys/smiley36.gif

[BikeMax]

[QUOTE=Sir Fed]

[quote name='BikeMax]I am sure you want other opinions than mine - but I have a very good article on why training with power is so effective' date=' it also reviews the various power meter systems. If you PM me your e-mail (and anyone else who may be interested is welcome to do the same) then I will mail it to you.[/QUOTE']

Is there no way to get this article posted on the home page of this website or at chainwheel? I am sure many people are interested in knowing more.

[/QUOTE]

I would be very happy to do this - I have plenty of very good informative articles that I am happy to provide. I have been discussing the possibility of a power based training forum with admin as I feel their is a real demand for it. I would be happy to moderate it and help where necessary.

Please let him know if you would support something like this.

Peter

[WorcesterWheelers]

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Is there no way to get this article posted on the home page of this website or at chainwheel? I am sure many people are interested in knowing more.

I would be very happy to do this - I have plenty of very good informative articles that I am happy to provide. I have been discussing the possibility of a power based training forum with admin as I feel their is a real demand for it. I would be happy to moderate it and help where necessary.

Please let him know if you would support something like this.

Peter

I would certainly welcome and support such an initiative. I've only recently acquired a Powertap, and in the process of switching from a HR based program to a Power based one. And would certainly appreciate all the help and information I can get hold of.

[stulemanski]

In my opinion, the best article on training with power was written by Andrew Coggan. You can download a PDF of it from here...

http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/coggan.pdf

Extremely useful stuff - I'm so convinced by training with power that I no longer even use an HRM (although I will admit that HR data in conjunction with power data can give you additional insights).

Many of the training sessions that various coaches, and organisations such as BikeMax will give you come straight out of this document.

I use a Powertap (just the regular system), and have found it absolutely invaluable in training. The only downside is that it is wheel specific - you can have it on your training wheels, or your racing wheels, or you can buy two and have one on each. (Personally, I do all my training and racing on the same wheels - mavic open pro's).

One thing that is important about using these sessions is that you need to be able to follow the required output. Levels 4, 5, 6 can be difficult to judge if you're not actually measuring your power. Similarly, if you have a 10% variable error in the measured power values from day to day, then you could be training at completely the wrong level. I know this has been a particular problem at BikeMax in the past, where the Cardgirus machines varied widely between different machines and also varied over time.

Note: It doesn't matter so much if the level is wrong but consistently wrong. i.e. I don't much care if my TT power is 350Watts or 350 ChickenPower and my max is 420W or 420 ChickenPower - as long as my training levels are based relative to these performances.

Final thing - there is already a very good "training with power" forum at

www.cyclingforums.com

Andrew Coggan posts there, as do many other top athletes and sports scientists. It's a very good place to get world class (and free) advice. In fact, I know that BikeMax (the hubber, rather than the institution) visits that forum to ask their advice for himself and for his clients.  

stulemanski38826.5114467593

[CVANC]

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For information - we really specialise in online training and have clients all over the world - even Worcester (ask WW smileys/smiley2.gif)

Hey Bikemax! smileys/smiley7.gif I take offense in the suggestion that Worcester is "on the otherside of the world". smileys/smiley19.gif

...at least you got mentioned. smileys/smiley19.gif

[linnega]

Just on power.  Bikemax - I read your comment a month or so ago about the unstable nature of heart rate as a measurement and how power is better in that regard.  So far no problem.  You then went on to mention that you montior power output at a given heartrate to determine progress.  This doesn't make sense to me as we are going back to using heart rate as a benchmark.  Given the same course and weather condiitons (more possible in Durban than Cape Town), a powermeter would then be of no use to me as the resistance forces are all stable, therefore any change in power will make me faster.  Thus if I measure my speed against average heart rate for a given course I can get the same level of information.  Am I correct, or have I missed something?

[BikeMax]

[quote name='linnega]Just on power.  Bikemax - I read your comment a month or so ago about the unstable nature of heart rate as a measurement and how power is better in that regard.  So far no problem.  You then went on to mention that you montior power output at a given heartrate to determine progress.  This doesn't make sense to me as we are going back to using heart rate as a benchmark.  Given the same course and weather condiitons (more possible in Durban than Cape Town)' date=' a powermeter would then be of no use to me as the resistance forces are all stable, therefore any change in power will make me faster.  Thus if I measure my speed against average heart rate for a given course I can get the same level of information.  Am I correct, or have I missed something?[/QUOTE']

Hi Linnega

I am racking my brain about that post - but regardless, I would not use HR as any sort of performance benchmark. I advocate using power vs duration as a performance measure. i.e if you can increase your power over a given duration then you will be riding faster. A PM allows you to measure the power you can put out over various different (in fact all) durations and so not only measure performance improvements but also power profile and therefore any weak areas in your performance relative to others (TT vs sprinter for example) I do not advocate using HR at all as a performance measure and in fact encourage our clients not to use it at all. Even if someone does not have a PM they can measure distance travelled over time (on the same route) in order to guage performance improvements in a simple manner.

If you were to measure speed against HR you would be subject to the same HR variables that we have mentioned already and as such would have no absolute measure of performance improvement (or lack of)

Hope this helps.

Peter

[stulemanski]

[quote name='linnega]Just on power.  Bikemax - I read your comment a month or so ago about the unstable nature of heart rate as a measurement and how power is better in that regard.  So far no problem.  You then went on to mention that you montior power output at a given heartrate to determine progress.  This doesn't make sense to me as we are going back to using heart rate as a benchmark.  Given the same course and weather condiitons (more possible in Durban than Cape Town)' date=' a powermeter would then be of no use to me as the resistance forces are all stable, therefore any change in power will make me faster.  Thus if I measure my speed against average heart rate for a given course I can get the same level of information.  Am I correct, or have I missed something?[/QUOTE']

The theory goes that if you are putting out more power at the same heartrate, then you have improved. Simple. But yes, you are right to imply that this is a crude benchmark. HR has a "half life" of about 30 seconds, varies according to heat, hydration, sleep quality, and drifts upwards throughout a session, so really not much use for intervals.

For what it's worth, you would be really hard pushed to produce a constant power output on a stretch of road - even a 0.5% grade will significantly affect your power output at the same percieved effort. Yes, a TT over a known course is a good way to test your fitness, but it won't give you the level of information that you require to set an optimum training program (although most people eventually tend to find something that works for them without power meters or HRM's).  

Contact www.bicyclepower.co.za Frank or Adrian will give you the lowdown for the best deal on a Powertap hub.

stulemanski38826.5324189815

[wonduhboy]

ok, so with all this talk of training with power - for us uneducated:

What are the options for this (hardware wise) and also what costs are involved?

Can you combine it with a stationary trainer (i.e. a built in PM)?

[BikeMax]

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ok, so with all this talk of training with power - for us uneducated:

What are the options for this (hardware wise) and also what costs are involved?

Can you combine it with a stationary trainer (i.e. a built in PM)?

Options are;

Power Tap Pro - R5800 plus wheel

Power Tap SL - R7200 plus wheel

SRM - starting at around R15,000 (TBC)

Ergomo - ~R10,000

Polar - ~R2500 for sensor and ~R3000 for watch

I have tried all bar the SRM and have come to the conclusion that the Power Tap SL is the best all round option. When built into a decent lightweight rim it becomes a tool you can both train and race with. The SRM is a great tool but a little expensive and requires calibration fairly frequently. The Ergomo is a little new to be fully reviewed at this point as they have just launched a new model. A little expensive but nice to have it located in the BB so you can use any wheels (of course eventually it needs servicing) Polar is very finnicky to set up and use and tends to be the most variable in output terms however if you have the watch then it is pretty cheap.

Hope this helps.

Peter

[GoLefty!!]

Power based training is definately the most complete measure of improvement.

HR training is like tuning a F1 car based on revs alone. You know how fast the engines ticking over but no idea what that speed means at the wheels.

As a recent convert to PowerTap I'm completely sold on the concept. HR just never gave me the results i wanted. I no longer use the HR monitor for bike related training.

pretty watch though

 

[stringbean]

Would you guys go for the powertap sl or the home trainer with the powertap built in